tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post3730880468675916010..comments2023-06-09T10:31:29.812+01:00Comments on The Liturgical Pimpernel: "No frills" liturgy?The Liturgical Pimpernelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06937184037752964023noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-2413512966267158162011-01-31T01:48:40.251+00:002011-01-31T01:48:40.251+00:00Calvin, J. Edwards and Presbyterian all in the sam...Calvin, J. Edwards and Presbyterian all in the same thread, a rather traditionall Catholic thread. Amazing! Just shows the complexity of the problem of Liturgy at every turn. The Rev.Michael P. Forbes, Anglican( I use no special Social Communication so I find Anonymous convenient)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-8613867120075710882011-01-31T01:28:02.875+00:002011-01-31T01:28:02.875+00:00Sorry Paul, no go I'm afraid. You fail both to...Sorry Paul, no go I'm afraid. You fail both to recognize the influence and importance of words (which I find incredible!) and at the same time you seem to presume to know or have some gnostic knowledge of whether there are or aren't any fruits simply because you're not seeing them in the way you expect or want. <br /><br />Whether or not it is or isn't, it does seem more like an ideological axe to grind or sour grapes than any kind of legitimate criticism. <br /><br />My message to bloggers and all other Catholic writers who write about and promote these and any other good Catholic things: keep it up! It does bear fruit and most certainly more than saying nothing at all.<br /><br />RRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-1437807091648420322011-01-31T01:03:32.977+00:002011-01-31T01:03:32.977+00:00The Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox pull of...The Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox pull off chanted canonical Hours and DL w/ smells and bells because they just ditch parts and ceremonies they cannot do. Thus, even though a small congregation of Easterners (properly orthodox or not) has sung liturgies w/ smells and bells, in practice that basically looks and sounds like a few people singing (hopefully well) and the priest and/or some guy in a sticharion swinging a thurible around.<br />---------------------------------------------<br />Oh sure, the offices for parishes, as opposed to the monastic communities, are free to shorten Orthros and Vespers, but they usually keep the essence of these services. It has always been customary for parishes to shorten the extremely lengthy offices as celebrated by the monks.<br />I've been to a number of Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox churches, quite small too, which still maintain the full Vespers lasting well into the night. Unfortunately,there are signs they're becoming becoming fewer and fewer in number. <br /><br />It is interesting to observe, howewer, there are some parishes, mostly Greek Orthodox, which have radically pruned Orthros. Some have gone so far as to attempt to introduce an "anticipated" Divine Liturgy on Saturday evening. I wonder where they got that idea? A bishop on the west coast warned this was contrary to the Byzantine Typicon.<br /><br />It is a sign Orthodox churches are being infected with habits derived from Uniate and Roman Catholic parish practices. Just observe the barest essentials by taking the line of least resistance, or drop it altogether. Very hard to build a foundation for liturgical reform, or liturgical creativity with that attitude as your guide.Dunstan Hardingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-7755462183312971312011-01-31T00:30:31.688+00:002011-01-31T00:30:31.688+00:00Should three people turn up for a Mass during a bl...Should three people turn up for a Mass during a blizzard should they be sent home since a solemn offering of the liturgy is impossible?<br />----------------------------------------------<br /><br />If the priest has been properly trained to chant instead of take the line of line resistance, which most appear to do, the parishioners showing up in a blinding snow storm won't have to be turned away or disappointed by an inadequate performance. <br />Of course, solemnity should be increased as the occasion merits, and there are countless ways to do it, e.g. a more sparing use of incense, increasing the number of candles, using flowers/banners, employing antependia, burning additional lamps,using particularly fine vestments etc. The recited liturgy should be reserved for dire emergencies. It should never be the standard or normal practice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-65109012694625880882011-01-30T12:35:19.577+00:002011-01-30T12:35:19.577+00:00I'd rather kneel in the mud next to an army ch...<i> I'd rather kneel in the mud next to an army chaplain saying Mass on the hood of a Jeep than attend a Pontifical Mass. </i><br /><br />And I submit that this is evidence that, in America at least, Catholicism has been almost fatally poisoned by the dominant Puritanism of the early colonists. We tend to see every aspect of the Catholic religion, even the sacred liturgy, through the lens of a Jonathan Edwards sermon.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-85318398050670082222011-01-30T12:30:34.953+00:002011-01-30T12:30:34.953+00:00Anonymous #1:
Abolish low and private masses alt...Anonymous #1:<br /><br /><i> Abolish low and private masses altogether. </i><br /><br />This is almost as ridiculous as the cult of the Low Mass and the private recitation of the Divine Office. Circumstances in life vary greatly, even for those with the best intentions. Should three people turn up for a Mass during a blizzard should they be sent home since a solemn offering of the liturgy is impossible?<br /><br />Anonymous #2<br /><br /><i> Your criticism is misguided to say the least. </i><br /><br />It is not misguided in the least. By their fruits, doesn't it say? If you have a cogent argument then feel free to make it, but I refuse to laud the self-indulgent ruminations of 'blogworld simply because you demand that I do so.<br /><br />And, if we cannot have the courage to use our names, can we at least adopt some sort of recognizable identifier, preferably one that isn't insufferably arrogant, like the at least four individuals I know who refer to themselves as "Enrico Dante" on various message boards, and probably have never even seen a copy of the Ceremoniale.Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-21888882969616284002011-01-30T10:32:55.423+00:002011-01-30T10:32:55.423+00:00Low Mass, when said by a priest who clearly, audib...Low Mass, when said by a priest who clearly, audibly, and slowly pronounces the propers, is glorious. There I meet the Lord of Calvary in dread contemplative silence. Wall to wall polyphony, pounds of lace, and the fussiness of brocaded men in tassels running around a sanctuary are mere vanities. I'd rather kneel in the mud next to an army chaplain saying Mass on the hood of a Jeep than attend a Pontifical Mass. The Holy Sacrifice does not need the detritus of human vanity to augment its inestimable power.<br /><br />So many traditional Catholics have forgotten that the text of the Mass is the crucible of justice. If we do not understand the text of the Mass, we cannot reconcile with our brothers and sisters before offering the sacrifice (cf Mt. 5:24) So many traditionalists, especially those illiterate in Latin, worship a floor show instead of the Paschal Mystery immersed in our world. Education in Latin and philology trumps fussing over the cut of 16th century Bavarian tunicles.sortacatholicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-35381382298556630892011-01-29T23:03:45.568+00:002011-01-29T23:03:45.568+00:00Actually, within the context of the Roman liturgy,...Actually, within the context of the Roman liturgy, you either do it right or go to the next lower level of solemnity. The Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox pull off chanted canonical Hours and DL w/ smells and bells because they just ditch parts and ceremonies they cannot do. Thus, even though a small congregation of Easterners (properly orthodox or not) has sung liturgies w/ smells and bells, in practice that basically looks and sounds like a few people singing (hopefully well) and the priest and/or some guy in a sticharion swinging a thurible around. Personally, I'd rather just have a Low Mass and recto tono Office during the week anyway. Either go all out or don't, do not make a weekday ferial or lower class feast Mass some drawn out attempt at a sung liturgy. <br /><br />Sure, a good sized Catholic parish should be able to pull off decent liturgies but the real problem in most of them is that no one has any idea what liturgy is supposed to be. That is the main problem.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03286578491636129500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-16920300988811835322011-01-29T21:37:17.172+00:002011-01-29T21:37:17.172+00:00"Singing, though useful and desireable (and i..."Singing, though useful and desireable (and indeed decorative) is not essential. It is therefore a frill". <br /><br />How many times do we hear pastors use something along these lines as an excuse for liturgy without music of any kind? If the tiniest Orthodox churches with a congregation that could fill a good walk-in closet can have a chanted Orthros or Vespers,or both, with the smells and bells each day, there is no excuse for a Roman-rite church of average size, with average resources not doing something on the same order.<br />Sorry, but quotes from St. Thomas Aquinas aside, there just is no excuse for a measure of solemnity at Mass or the Liturgy of the Hours in 95% of Catholic parishes in the U.S.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-78291692138429179402011-01-29T14:38:23.782+00:002011-01-29T14:38:23.782+00:00Paul, ideas and the formation which comes through ...Paul, ideas and the formation which comes through them pretty clearly can and do influence action whether you see or are being shown the fruits or not. Your criticism is misguided to say the least.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-66306799071907595752011-01-29T00:05:47.809+00:002011-01-29T00:05:47.809+00:00Abolish low and private masses altogether. Then we...Abolish low and private masses altogether. Then we can put an end to the 25 minutes or less quickie mass.<br /><br />Calvin, by the way,preferred singing the psalms only--still a tradition in the Dutch and Swiss reformed churches today. I might add the primitive Roman liturgy was easily as stark and restrained as any mainline Protestant church today. It too consisted largely of sung psalms. Something which would have been very agreeable to Calvin and the continental reformers.<br /> <br />While Calvin, John Knox, Ulrich Zwingli,may have objected to "frills", most Presbyterian churches today have not only more, but far better music than you'll find in the vast majority of Catholic churches. They're willing to spend a few bucks on a decent organist, choir director,and choir. A far cry different approach from most RC parishes.<br /><br />Perhaps, that will begin to change with the Anglican Ordinariate. At last, some decent music in the Latin rite!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-15592196144765263792011-01-28T19:33:46.528+00:002011-01-28T19:33:46.528+00:00I think the term "frill" is probably use...I think the term "frill" is probably used in a colloquial sense, not to say that singing or ceremony is superfluous. The full ritual and singing in a full Solemn Vespers could be said to be "pulling out all the stops" while a simple recto tono or read version could be said to be the "no frills" version, again, not implying that the full ritual is mere window-dressing just that the simpler form doesn't have all the nice (and proper) things that the Solemn form has.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03286578491636129500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-24521653599740804142011-01-28T17:48:39.207+00:002011-01-28T17:48:39.207+00:00I, too, agree with your rant.
If you don't mi...I, too, agree with your rant.<br /><br />If you don't mind, I'd like to add a further point, or perhaps a corollary: It's much better to do something, even on a very small scale, rather than to talk about it endlessly. My favorite example is the discussion of the traditional Divine Office on the New Liturgical Movement and other 'blogs. They talk and talk, but mostly can't seem to produce more than a handful of occasional celebrations. But I can't understand this. Granted I'm a schismatic, but I belong to a group that can produce weekly offerings of the Little Hours and Vespers, and Matins on at least a third of the Sundays throughout the year. Sure, a lot of it is recited (not spoken, mind you) so it's no real treat for the senses, but why should that be the deciding factor?Paul Goingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06479425203740052841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-63453119650265518422011-01-28T15:54:31.903+00:002011-01-28T15:54:31.903+00:00You nailed it.
Office read alone and Low Mass (or...You nailed it. <br />Office read alone and Low Mass (or no chant NO Mass) as a standard? Regrettably, it _is_ a de facto standard, and it has been for quite some time. After all where did Low Mass (replete with silence so cherished by many) come from?marhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01421317620294595312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-35129781243817279932011-01-28T15:38:11.488+00:002011-01-28T15:38:11.488+00:00Most parishes I've belonged to in the past few...Most parishes I've belonged to in the past few years have inordinate 'frills'. I would not consider singing the acclamations or following the rubrics to be 'frills', but I would consider singing happy birthday to members of the congregation a frill as I would replacing the responsorial psalm with a modern adulterated (singable) version.<br />When I want no-frills, I mean I want sacred liturgy...Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02555026809325146970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-38467373357896450412011-01-28T15:22:28.730+00:002011-01-28T15:22:28.730+00:00or has seen the Pope celebrate Ash Wednesday, know...<i>or has seen the Pope celebrate Ash Wednesday, knows that singing and ceremony are integral to the liturgy, not frills.</i><br /><br />Integral, yes. Essential, no. St. Thomas Aquinas had something to say about matter and form too. Those are the essentials.<br /><br />Next time, before you get all excited about the use of words, perhaps consult a dictionary. In Merriam-Webster's, for instance, under frill you will find 3.b. "something decorative or useful and desirable but not essential : luxury".<br /><br />Singing, though useful and desireable (and indeed decorative) is not essential. It is therefore a frill.Samuel J. Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12766238466391394665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-82960461539963962592011-01-28T09:36:43.655+00:002011-01-28T09:36:43.655+00:00I agree with your 'rant' completely.
Sure...I agree with your 'rant' completely.<br /><br />Surely in any liturgical celebration the best resources available should be used. That may often mean 'said service' rather than Renaissance polyphony but the principle must be that one does the best possible for the praise of Almighty God - nothing to do with 'frills'.Rubricariushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05050302650867319277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-4128632306054044162011-01-28T08:33:11.585+00:002011-01-28T08:33:11.585+00:00Maybe "no frills" refers to less lace, s...Maybe "no frills" refers to less lace, smaller pompoms, and less kissing...: the non-essentials.The Secret Thomisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848628772318153661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8763870719324376396.post-77535164876582384012011-01-28T07:59:17.160+00:002011-01-28T07:59:17.160+00:00I hope Patricius is reading this...I hope Patricius is reading this...Ludovicohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00640712611554174346noreply@blogger.com